Admin

North West Intermediate Rugby Union Leagues - Discussion



Points deductions

Anything to do with the leagues

Points deductions

Postby mikemoore » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:44 pm

Like Stockport (see other post) and many clubs, we at Moore are struggling. Last Saturday we cancelled our 1st team game at Liverpool Collegiate. We only had about 3 players with any 1st team experience. Our 2nds played Congleton with inexperienced and young players. It would have been irresponsible and dangerous for us to have sent this team to Collegiate and yet we are penalised for doing what we consider the correct thing. We are at the point where points don't make any difference. What does matter is that we try to provide rugby as best we can.
mikemoore
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Points deductions

Postby jembutler » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:36 pm

Unfortunately as in many cases before Health and safety of players is not really a concern of the rfu or its affiliates, you will only get a response of "come up with an alternative ruling at the next agm" Also according to the home page of this website Moore were deducted points for breaking rule 23 "failing to return code of conduct" is that a first?
jembutler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Points deductions

Postby forumadmin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:34 pm

mikemoore wrote:We are at the point where points don't make any difference.


Points may not matter to Moore 2 but Congleton 2 are maybe still interested in gaining points, so from their point of view the points they eventually gained through the application of Rule 13 may be welcome. Rule 13 is meant to prevent team loading and Moore 2 may not have had any of their 1st team playing in the game but how is an outsider going to know this?

Rule 13 is a blunt instrument but there is an article on the front page of the website asking "could we ask for ideas in a consultative way, as to how we might modify this rule if Clubs feel this is necessary."
--
Barry A.
Forum Administrator.
"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand." Baruch Spinoza.
God = √-1.
forumadmin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Stockport

Re: Points deductions

Postby aboyle » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:20 pm

Since I became involved in refereeing I believe there has been a significant improvement in the standard of rugby being played in the Leagues from division 1 to the top half of division 3. The intensity of the contact is greater and therefore the risk of injury is higher. Clubs are correct to try to protect division 4 and 5 players and young players from the risks of playing in games that are above their current level.
I think that rule 13 should be altered and brought in line with the 'no front row' rule meaning if a higher team has forfeited the lower team can play for a maximum of two points, this could be extended by ruling that if a lower team wins three games on days when a higher team has forfeited they would become ineligible to win any prize at that level in either league or cup and could not be promoted. The team that forfeits should still receive a points deduction.
Clubs should be encouraging players to play, most accusations of loading of teams are unfounded and in any case should clubs not have a right to select players as they wish. I have never understood the issue , outside of the cup games, why it is a problem if a player who for personal or work reasons can not travel to an away game can not be allowed to play in a home game.
aboyle
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Points deductions

Postby Wire58 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:28 pm

Very sensible post - A lot of clubs in the North West are really struggling to get teams out and sometimes hitting them with points deductions for 'doing the right thing for their players' doesn't help anyone.
Wire58
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:08 am

Re: Points deductions

Postby jembutler » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:42 pm

I notice on the front page of this website that a player has suffered a broken neck playing 1st XV rugby, whilst i think everyone involved in rugby has the upmost support for the injured player i cant help but feel that without changes to rule 13 more of these types of injury will happen. Was this player a regular 1st xv front row? was he filling in to stop points deduction and ensure fixtures are completed within the league rules? Nobody knows, but if that is the case i'm sure that club must now be crapping themselves over any legal action taken by the player or his family. Clubs 1st and foremost duty is to the safety of its players and if that means not fulfilling a fixture then so be it. Rule 13 was only brought in to stop teams "loading" but it has created in my eyes a huge safety implication. For anyone to imply that a young 18 year old front row player, playing his rugby at division 3 or lower in our leagues, should step up and play front row for his clubs 1st xv against opposition from say North One West, is in my eyes dangerous, but clubs are put into this position through no fault of their own, with threats of points deductions etc. Points deductions move teams down leagues causing further loss of players and revenues, from lost sponsorship etc. Eventually causing the club to fold. Clubs are having a hard time at the moment and dont need being placed into a position of choosing between players welfare and league rules, after all we are all here to watch/play rugby are we not?
jembutler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Points deductions

Postby 373 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:21 pm

jembutler wrote:I notice on the front page of this website that a player has suffered a broken neck playing 1st XV rugby, whilst i think everyone involved in rugby has the upmost support for the injured player i cant help but feel that without changes to rule 13 more of these types of injury will happen. Was this player a regular 1st xv front row? was he filling in to stop points deduction and ensure fixtures are completed within the league rules? Nobody knows, but if that is the case i'm sure that club must now be crapping themselves over any legal action taken by the player or his family. Clubs 1st and foremost duty is to the safety of its players and if that means not fulfilling a fixture then so be it. Rule 13 was only brought in to stop teams "loading" but it has created in my eyes a huge safety implication. For anyone to imply that a young 18 year old front row player, playing his rugby at division 3 or lower in our leagues, should step up and play front row for his clubs 1st xv against opposition from say North One West, is in my eyes dangerous, but clubs are put into this position through no fault of their own, with threats of points deductions etc. Points deductions move teams down leagues causing further loss of players and revenues, from lost sponsorship etc. Eventually causing the club to fold. Clubs are having a hard time at the moment and dont need being placed into a position of choosing between players welfare and league rules, after all we are all here to watch/play rugby are we not?

Except that it wasn't in a NOWIRUL game, it was in the RFU leagues, so using it as an excuse against rule 13 is a bit of a stretch. Any club that is putting lads into the position where they are endangering a players welfare needs to have a word with itself. I know I was put in that position a few years ago and asked to play Prop - a fairly curt 'No.' quickly followed. Arguably point deductions means clubs find the right level for them and get them to a point where they can play enjoyable rugby once again. I know at my club we struggled for players until we dropped down a Division and lads actually started enjoying playing again.
373
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:56 am

Re: Points deductions

Postby jembutler » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:40 pm

373, i know it was a rfu fixture but if they hadn't of played because of lack of front row players, then the 2nds (who are in nowirul) would also have points deducted. Lets say the scenario was 1st xv are playing A, 2nd xv are playing B. Team A are in North west 1 and team b are in Nowirul division 4 south. 1st Xv cannot get a front row (never mind a replacement) they ring the rfu league secretary and team A fixture secretary and explain situation. If the front row for the 2nd xv are inexperienced and not prepared to stand up, 1st xv have point deduction and have to replay at a later date. 2nd xv play the game and 30+ people get a game of rugby, then the 2nd team get points deduction as well!!

I agree about the "point deductions means clubs find the right level for them" but with half a season to go players will become p****d off at getting battered week in week out and go elsewhere. As i pointed out on my earlier post i dont know the answer, but to penalise a club for looking after the welfare/safety of its players seem stupid.
jembutler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Points deductions

Postby forumadmin » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:14 pm

jembutler wrote:Was this player a regular 1st xv front row? was he filling in to stop points deduction and ensure fixtures are completed within the league rules? Nobody knows, but if that is the case i'm sure that club must now be crapping themselves over any legal action taken by the player or his family.


I don't think that this entirely hypothetical 'straw man' argument has helped your case. Maybe the sentence would have been better stopping at "Nobody knows".

As 373 pointed out the player can always say "No".

jembutler wrote:with half a season to go players will become p****d off at getting battered week in week out and go elsewhere.


Isn't this the nature of the league system. Some teams will win most of the time, some will win and lose and some will lose most of the time. At least within a league system the standard of the opposition will usually be about the same level. The teams which lose most of the time will probably be relegated and play their rugby at level more suitable for them the season after.

jembutler wrote:For anyone to imply that a young 18 year old front row player, playing his rugby at division 3 or lower in our leagues, should step up and play front row for his clubs 1st xv against opposition from say North One West, is in my eyes dangerous


Maybe a better example could have been used? There is no team in North One West which has a 2nd team lower than Nowirul Division 2.
--
Barry A.
Forum Administrator.
"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand." Baruch Spinoza.
God = √-1.
forumadmin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Stockport

Re: Points deductions

Postby jembutler » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:03 am

I don't think that this entirely hypothetical 'straw man' argument has helped your case. Maybe the sentence would have been better stopping at "Nobody knows".
Barry someone must know! and its not my case, its my view.

The teams which lose most of the time will probably be relegated and play their rugby at level more suitable for them the season after
if they still have a team left! There are already teams that have been "removed" from the leagues, do you think that teams players are just going to hang around and wait for next season? I think they would probably go elsewhere to play rugby.

There is no team in North One West which has a 2nd team lower than Nowirul Division 2.
you know the point i'm making. It doesnt really matter what leagues, as the step up from our lower leagues to the rfu leagues is a step too far some players.

I wholeheartedly agree with the ethos and rules of the Nowirul leagues i just think some of the rules could be adopted by the rfu regarding front row etc. I dont know how other clubs go on but in a 2 team club you need at least 5 props and 2 hookers available every week. Not many small clubs have that luxury and if they dont the chances are they will get penalised.
jembutler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:42 pm

Next

Return to League Matters

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron